149: Catherine Campbell-Ferreira

From Farm Girl to Finance Executive

Having spent her career in the motor industry, Catherine Campbell-Ferreira admits that it’s an industry that’s in her blood and which she loves, but she also shares her views here on the role of women in accounting and how they can assist in the post-Covid recovery.

CIARAN RYAN: Today’s podcast is sponsored by Draftworx, which provides automated drafting and working paper financial software to more than 8000 accounting and auditing firms and corporations. CFO Talks is a brand of the South African Institute of Business Accountants. It’s my great pleasure today to welcome Catherine Campbell-Ferreira, who is finance executive at Isuzu Motors South Africa and that’s a subsidiary of the Japanese parent company, Isuzu Motors. Prior to that, she was senior vice president for finance and IT at Isuzu South Africa and before that, she held positions from financial planning and analysis manager at General Motors South Africa. She’s had a vast amount of experience in the motor industry in South Africa and it’s safe to say that there’s little that Catherine hasn’t seen or sold in this sector, whether it be transfer pricing, expense accounting, or tech implementation. First of all, welcome, Catherine, where are you talking to us from?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Good morning, I am in Gqeberha, formerly known as Port Elizabeth, and I am working from home on a cloudy day.

CIARAN RYAN: Let’s kick off with a quick overview of Isuzu and where it fits into the global Isuzu family and also the South African market, if you will.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: All right. Thank you very much. So if we look back in 2017, Isuzu Motors Limited made a bold and strategic decision to invest in the country by purchasing General Motors’ light commercial vehicle assets, thereby it made Isuzu Motors South Africa the first commercial and light commercial vehicle manufacturing and distribution operation outside of Japan in which Isuzu has 100% shareholding. So this was a first for the company and we’re very proud that we are taking part in this wonderful journey with them. Both light commercial and heavy commercial vehicles are built under one roof at our Struandale plant in Gqeberha and as a leading manufacturer of commercial vehicle, we take great pride in our ability to provide business solutions by offering a wide range of medium, heavy and extra commercial vehicles. We also have the stunning and beautiful mu-X and it is manufactured at Isuzu’s Samrong plant in Thailand. It’s fully important into South Africa for sale into our right-hand drive market, as well as the rest of Africa. So that’s a brief history about east Isuzu Motors and where we fit into the global company, as well as where we are based locally in our domestic South African market.

CIARAN RYAN: We’ve also got Nicolaas van Wyk, chief executive officer of the South African Institute of Business Accountants on the line. I know Nicolaas wanted to ask some questions about electric cars and where we are going in terms of the motor industry going forward. Nicolaas, did you have a question for Catherine?

NICOLAAS VAN WYK: Hello Ciaran and Catherine, it’s nice speaking to you today. I’m sure it’s a very exciting time for the motor industry with electric cars and some countries are mandating, and I’m sure South Africa is looking into it. So it will be nice to hear Catherine sharing with the audience some information about that and how the motor industry is moving.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Thank you, Nicolaas, it is moving and like with anything, change is inevitable and it’s coming very quickly. I believe with the way we’re watching our environment, everything we’re seeing going on, this will speed up as we need to make sure that the environment comes first and we’re friendly from that point of view. You can see in the European markets, in Australia and in the United States, there’s a big drive for electric vehicles and better friendlier vehicles and how do we do this better. So it is coming, I know there have been talks with government and NUMSA on how do we implement this in South Africa as well. So I believe in the next five years, there’s a lot of change happening again and as all OEMs, we are preparing ourselves as best as we can.

CIARAN RYAN: Catherine, there is a Motor Industry Development Programme, which is basically for people outside of South Africa, that is basically a plan that was introduced by the government here, which gives motor manufacturers like Isuzu import credits for the amount that they export. How critical is that to the business model of Isuzu in South Africa?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Yes, correct, we have our APDP, which is the Automotive Production and Development Programme, and the government knows that our automotive industry contributes about 6.9% of the country’s GDP. As a result, they have this implemented plan which supports this, and we’re the largest manufacturing centre in the economy. APDP and the incentives provided by government are an essential part of the motor development plan that we have and our viability as OEMs. It’s also based on making sure that we localise, we produce locally, and we export. Basically, 64% of all manufactured cars in South Africa are exported globally and that is also linked directly to the APDP and the benefits provided by government.

CIARAN RYAN: Okay, give us a sense of the market conditions for the motor sector at present, in light of the Covid lockdowns and the impact that’s had on vehicle demand in South Africa and abroad, of course, your export markets, let’s not forget that.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Covid-19 was a quick impact and it had a severe impact on the whole automotive landscape. If I just look back now, you can see that 80% of our global economy was currently or still is now coming back to some form of lockdown. If we just look at New Zealand and we see what’s happening in the United States. The world has never faced a black swan of this scale. The effects began in China, where we saw sales plunge by 71% in February 2020, by April sales had dropped by 47% in the United States and dived down by 80% in Europe. South Africa’s automotive industry was one of the most hardest hit by Covid-19, we saw a five-week production halt during the hard lockdown and that had a major impact on the business and economy of Nelson Mandela Bay, which is homes to Isuzu Motors South Africa. Basically, one could never imagine a time when revenue came to a standstill. So the demand was still there, the supply was happening, but everything was locked down for five weeks. As we’ve come back now, we are seeing that with the initial supply and manufacturing disruptions coming to an end, the industry is now experiencing a demand shock with uncertain recovery timelines. We’ve seen changes in customer behaviour, there are different mobility preferences and online shopping experiences. I’m sure we’re all shopping online now. This is driving a different consumer behaviour out there. We saw the market drop by close to 30% in 2020, and the commercial vehicle has come back, where we are playing, as bakkies and trucks are supporting shopping and the new way people do business, have come back stronger and more positive compared to our passenger vehicles. I believe our passenger vehicles are impacted more by our tourism that we have seen has not come back yet, and people are just staying home a bit more and not purchasing that second vehicle. Families are maybe going down to only one vehicle instead of two. But on the commercial side, we have seen a quick recovery and there is a great demand. What’s hampering us now is actually the supply that is hampering the global recovery as well and this is going to be felt all over, where we can see issues in our logistics, as well certain components globally and how do we meet that? So we’re sitting in a bit of a supply and demand situation right now. But I am positive and happy to say that we’ve seen the demand come back and that is a good thing. South Africa is very resilient, and I think this industry is very resilient, and it’s coming back quicker than we expected, we just now need to be ready to support that recovery that we are seeing coming at us.

CIARAN RYAN: Great and just to pivoting to something else, your position is finance executive at Isuzu Motors South Africa. Is that correct?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Yes.

CIARAN RYAN: How does that differ from CFO?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: As we are a global company, we have a group CFO, [unclear] and he is from Japan. When Covid initially hit, our international service personnel, our Japanese liaisons, they returned to Japan. In that role I was the senior vice president of finance and IT, supporting them. However, now with the world opening up again, our group CFO has returned to South Africa and as such, I am supporting him from an executive finance role, and he reports into our global corporation back in Japan.

CIARAN RYAN: So it is very much a CFO type function that you are fulfilling but at the South African national level?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Correct. Global organisations will always have a group MD or a group CFO, currently Mr Billy Tom is MD and he is a South African, and then we have our group CFO, who is the Japanese liaison supporting the organisation. We are the first 100% subsidiary that Japan has made this investment in, and we are fully owned. So it’s a new journey for them as well. As a company, we are only three years in the making and so we are learning as we’re going through all that.

‘It’s the kind of industry where once you start, you don’t leave.’

CIARAN RYAN: Okay, that’s interesting. Talk about yourself, your career journey, I see that you’ve spent most of your career in the motor industry in South Africa. So where did it all start? Where did you grow up? Are you from Port Elizabeth originally or not?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: I’m initially a farm girl from Fort Beaufort, I went to Winterberg Agricultural High School, and I attended Rhodes University for my financial degree. I did a teaching degree after that as well for a year, considering I may go into teaching at some stage. It never happened; I was hired straight as a graduate in training at General Motors South Africa in my first year of working. I started working for General Motors South Africa in finance and I rotated throughout the finance department. I was very fortunate to work in all areas, in all aspects and I had a great four or five years in the programme planning and the business environment of vehicles. I was part of the Hummer project, I was part of the Chevrolet team, the Opel team, so I had a broad experience in the business as well as the finance side. Then when Isuzu Motors started in 2018, I was transferred as a finance manager and now I am heading up the finance part as the finance executive. That’s a brief story, there’s a lot of history in all that, it’s all been in the automotive industry. It’s the kind of industry where once you start, you don’t leave, it’s in my blood and I do love it.

CIARAN RYAN: I can imagine. Probably, if you did try and leave it for a year or two, you’d find yourself…like a bad drug habit, you find that it would keep on coming back to you, right?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: No, I think you’re very correct. There are some days that I wish I could leave it, but it is always very exciting, challenging, and no day’s the same. That much I can tell you.

CIARAN RYAN: No doubt, okay. Just talk about the accounting profession and your experience as an accountant in South Africa, has it changed over the years and how is that?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Yes, I believe it has and I believe that with the impact of Covid, we’ll see acceleration in the change of the accounting profession. Automation and digital transformation is allowing the streamlining of the routine and manual work we see in accounting. This is opening doors to continuous improvement in accounting, where accounting professionals now need to become more business partners, they need to become more involved. [Unclear] increasingly strategic role…performance accelerators, driving the business, talent managers and essentially being there as an excellent communicator. My key goal in the accounting profession and in leading my finance team now is that we need to tell the story through numbers. We also need to imagine what the different stories are going to be using those numbers to try put forward to the organisation, different stories, different outcomes of what could happen in the next five years, because if we’ve learned anything, we need to be prepared for anything that can happen and be ready to be there and hold the business up and provide direction and support to the key business decision-makers, as a finance profession and as the finance team supporting the business.

CIARAN RYAN: It’s interesting that you mention one of the roles of the accountant is to tell the story of the business in numbers and this is a theme that has come up quite a lot. I want Nicolaas to jump in here, just the evolving role of the finance executive or the CFO, the softer skills that are being brought or required of them. For example, strategy, communication, team leadership, that kind of thing. Nicolaas, maybe just jump in here with some of your observations about this.

NICOLAAS VAN WYK: It’s very interesting listening to Catherine and as she explained her role as communicator and telling a story. We see this development globally, where there’s less emphasis on the technical side of accounting, it’s obviously still necessary as you get your qualification and your degree but as you progress higher up in the value chain to the top level, C-level, and become a CFO, you need to have particular skills. We developed a competency framework for that that reflects the CFO skill sets and that is like Catherine has said, the operator, a catalyst, a strategist, a steward in the business. So we see that with everybody who we interview and in response to this we developed our own designation specifically for CFOs or vice presidents finance because we saw that they didn’t really have professional recognition. They have these amazing skill sets that they develop mostly on the job because on the qualification side it’s more theory, so we see that CFOs are self-made, self-developed through courses and workshops and mentoring and coaching, and obviously a lot of mistakes. We hope that through the establishment of our designation and through this podcast we’ll be able to share those learning experiences.

CIARAN RYAN: Catherine, maybe just offer your opinion about that, the changing role of the accountant and the finance executive. What changes have you noticed, is it more the softer type of stuff that we’ve been talking about, the ability to communicate and the ability to strategise?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: I think it’s the ability of a finance professional to go out into the company, see what is needed, try to pull together all the risks from the different areas of business. So for example, we all have supply chain, manufacturing, engineering, they all work there, and as a finance person, you need to pull all that together. You need to pull that together as a number, you need to pull that together using creativity and innovation and your leadership skills and collaboration is key.  [These are] skills that don’t necessarily come and you aren’t taught when you’re writing your accounting exam, how to collaborate, how to bring your leadership in to allow people to share the information and you take that and you put it together because ultimately, whatever decision is made, is made on numbers. I have a clear saying that at the end of each number, there’s always a human being and there’s always a human element. As finance professionals, we now need to look deeper at that human element and that need driving the numbers at the back and tell the story. We need to take in our ability to create, to innovate, collaborate, and make complex decision-making using those numbers and support the business. It’s something that you don’t write an exam on ever. I feel that the one year I did on teaching, where I did my post-graduate certificate in education, it’s a bit of an odd certificate to have at a point in time, but it focused on a lot of the softer skills that you would need to teach, that you need to guide people and to bring teams together. For me, that has supported myself a lot, especially in the last three years as I’ve grown in my career. So I look back on how important my accounting degree was, but then the year I spent doing the softer skills and learning and talking about psychology and writing how to influence people and getting students to do what you needed them to do in a positive way, it’s actually helped and benefited me a great deal, especially in the last 18 to 24 months.

CIARAN RYAN: Tell us a little bit about the challenges that you’ve faced as an accountant moving up through the ranks. What would you say were some of the biggest challenges you’ve had?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Looking back, I would say now just keeping people motivated, connected and engaged, especially during Covid. It was the ability to try to get my team to innovate and create different solutions that were actually going to drive the business forward, when a lot of the team members were in simply a surviving day-to-day mode. Most of us had never worked from home before, we had to pack up, go home and actually do month-end, quarter-end, do our annual financial statements and so on, all working virtually. That went off well and the team managed to do that, they were in autopilot, and they knew how to do that. The challenge was then to move them from the autopilot stage and to get them to start thinking again about being creative, about innovating and finding solutions to the different problems we had facing us, and to keep them connected. People were going through very difficult times, and I think we still are, and how do we make sure that that human touch and the human element is still staying there?

Only a handful of women make it to executive level

CIARAN RYAN: I agree with you 100% on that. I know you’ve also got strong views on the role of women in accounting and how they can help in the post-Covid recovery. Do you want to talk about that for a minute?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Thank you very much. I have very strong views and I’ve just done a women in leadership course through the University of Stellenbosch Business School, which was a great experience and I would recommend that anyone looking to do that does try to do it. We know women make up about 46% of the workforce at entry level, but there are only a handful of us, especially in the automotive industry, who even make it to the executive level. There are many reasons for this, stereotyping, there are less networking opportunities, talent pipeline, which we’re facing drastically now, especially with Covid, and women not being afforded the same opportunities as men. However, if you ask me how women are going to change the focus of accounting and how can they lead the post-Covid recovery, I don’t specifically believe it’s – I’m going to leave a question maybe with everyone – is that it’s not only a women thing. When I think long and hard about it, it’s more about a leadership role and if you ask anyone about leadership, they never cite a gender. They just say, we need to have a good leader and gender is never mentioned. I think there are three crucial habits that all good leaders do and not one is gender based. It is just the ability to anticipate the next change in business, continuing looking forward, I believe. Good leaders surround themselves with diversity, both personally and professionally, and they connect and create relationships. Lastly, I believe good leaders dare to be different and courageous and they look forward and they abandon the past. I’ve always, and I’m grappling with this question myself, do women leaders, as women come into Covid now, are women leaders going to be more successful due to our female characteristics in that we’re caring and we can create those relationships or just is it because women leaders in the past faced so many more challenges due to stereotyping, unconscious bias at work and so on, that we have learned to develop our leadership skills and are more deliberate in leading and, hence, we are poised now because we are on that cusp where leadership is so important that women are going to play a key role in the recovery of economies and world after Covid. I don’t believe it’s a gender thing, but I believe history might have allowed women to be prepared a bit more and step into that role and lead the recovery globally and domestically.

CIARAN RYAN: I guess education would be very much part of that and education is the linchpin in this post-Covid recovery, is it not? Maybe give us some of your thoughts about that, and particularly as it relates to the accounting profession. Is the standard of education where it should be for a profession in the state that we find ourselves in now?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: As I already mentioned, I wanted to be a teacher and I did that. So even from a younger age, I always believed that education and sharing that education and making sure children are educated is the most important thing. Nelson Mandela said education is the most powerful weapon, which you can use to change the world. I firmly believe in that, we need to start educating our children now in grade R because our children, my children, I’ve got two boys, they are going to be doing jobs I can’t even imagine. I unfortunately believe, and it’s scary to say, but I don’t believe our education system is actually preparing the next generation for what is going to still be required and needed in order to succeed. With education, it can never be taken away from you, it is something that will help drive confidence and belief in a person, and it opens doors to a better life, and it ensures a happier life. Education in the counting profession, it needs to have those hard skills that are there. We need to bring more technology to the side of it because a lot of what we have done is automated and I believe the accounting profession needs to drive a lot of that technology, and then we really need to bring in some of those softer skills, the skills that are going to be needed in the future and which maybe we don’t have now, such as critical thinking, data literacy, emotional intelligence, adaptability and flexibility, how to lead, how to have an inclusive environment. How do we teach that to the generations who are coming through? It’s actually scary, you watch children spend more time engaging on a laptop. So those skills are going to even be more essential in order for them to lead in the future years.

‘I always say fail stands for your first attempt in learning.’

CIARAN RYAN: Here’s a question I wanted to direct at both you and Nicolaas, are there some things you’re only going to learn through hard-won experience that you cannot learn in the classroom? Catherine, if you can answer that first.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Yes, I do, and I believe that to learn how to fail successfully is only learned through experience, there’s no textbook to teach you how to do it. For me, the word fail doesn’t stand as fail at a standard we all see it for. I teach and I always say fail stands for your first attempt in learning. So you cannot do that out of a textbook, you cannot do that from listening to someone else. You have to learn how to fail successfully, how to pick yourself up and try again and do better this time, and that can only be learned from experience. Failure is part of life, and it’s how you react to this failure and come back stronger, and you’ve learned through that experience. Unfortunately, it’s not always something we want to learn but it is there in life and it is a skill and how you recover from it that has to be learned through hard-won experience.

CIARAN RYAN: Interesting viewpoint there. Nicolaas, your, your take on this, SAIBA, of course, has very much taken this to heart as a professional organisation, that experience is very unacknowledged and under-recognised, maybe talk about that for a minute.

NICOLAAS VAN WYK: We’re on a very good topic here but there are so many angles that we don’t have enough time to explore everything. But I am constantly on LinkedIn and that’s where we make our connections, it’s a great networking platform. But some of the photos I see there, just speaking about females and their unique role, you do see a lot of professional moms both doing their careers but also raising kids [unclear]. What one does see now is on-the-job training actually happening because now for the first time, our kids, as Catherine has said, aren’t only at school looking at the theory but now sitting next to the parent working. Even with my kids, they hear me constantly speaking with colleagues over the phone doing this interview, for example. They learn by hearing the techniques that I use to communicate and explain, they’ve experienced my challenges, my fights and disagreements and strategy on how to adjust and adapt. So with every dark cloud there is a silver lining and I think what we haven’t fully explored yet is what it means to kids to see their parents actually working, instead of just going somewhere. So let’s say it’s post-lockdown and everybody can go back to work, what would be amazing is if we can move the kids with us and we can continue doing that. For me, that’s the best way of learning is by observing a parent working, bringing that home, talking about that and that really has an impact. Whereas in the past, they had very little knowledge of what I was doing, I could explain it to them but there was no real substance. I have seen my kids change and I believe now they will be much better in the job market. So that’s my five cents.

CIARAN RYAN: Thanks, Nicolaas. Catherine, back to you, when you look back at your career, what do you want your legacy to be? I know that you you’ve spoken about empowering women and a woman’s role in the profession as well. I guess teaching is in your blood, so you do a lot of mentoring at your work, but maybe is that where you would like your legacy to be, to nurture the next generation coming through?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: That question when I think about it, it’s not difficult to answer. I want to be remembered, and if they say my name one day, for motivating and enabling someone to achieve more than they thought possible. So to see my team members grow and develop to their full potential and saying, oh, I remember Catherine, I couldn’t do something, but she believed in me and now I have become an MD in this company and so on. So if I can be remembered for allowing people to achieve more, I would be happy.

CIARAN RYAN: Beautiful, okay. Just a couple of questions here before we wind down, what do you do in your downtime? You’ve mentioned you’ve got two kids, are they young? No doubt, they keep you pretty busy.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Yes, I have two boys, aged ten and seven. So they do keep me exceptionally busy. So any downtown I get, I try to spend with them, they keep me busy trying to be very active, which is great. I love seeing life through their eyes. Nicolaas, as you mentioned with them being at home with us while we’re working, my eldest is often in the office with me while I’m on team meetings and so on, and he has even got to a point where I would say something and he will look at me afterwards and say, mom, maybe you should have done it like this or like that. It’s amazing how they see things differently and all of a sudden, you sit back, and you think, okay, maybe I should have been a bit more diplomatic in that answer. So they do keep me busy and then I love reading and just going for walks and spending time with the family. I think family is very important, which I have learned to treasure in the last 18 to 24 months.

‘I don’t believe there is a normal and I don’t want to go back to what normal was.’

CIARAN RYAN: I’m sure you have experienced a lot more time with your kids, as Nicolaas also mentioned, you’re getting to know your children in a way that was probably not possible before.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Correct, I was never at home when they would get home from school, I’m fortunate enough to have a family member who can support with that. So I wouldn’t be there when they got home but now working from home as we have been, I’m actually here, so when they do run in from school, they always run into the office, look at me and give a big wave and a big smile, and that just energises you to keep going for the rest of the afternoon, just to see how they are. So there are some good things that we can take out of all this experience that we’ve had and which has changed and things we shouldn’t go back to anymore. So I think when people want to go back to normal, I don’t believe there is a normal and I don’t want to go back to what normal was. I would like to move forward to what the possibilities are and what we can have in the future.

CIARAN RYAN: There’s an interesting viewpoint, yes, the new normal is better than the old normal. You mentioned that you like reading, what books would you recommend? What’s something that really shaped you and motivated you that you’d like to share?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: I’ve been reading a few books. Firstly, for the relaxing side of my life, when I do get it, The Seven Sisters by Lucinda Riley. It’s not a leadership book, it’s just a good book series to read. Secondly, I have been reading again Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson, which helps you deal with change and how you should look at it and how the world is not going to stay the same, but how you need to adjust how you go forward and where you need to go. I’m currently reading Outliers – The Story of Succes by Malcolm Gladwell, it’s about what it really takes and why some people achieve so much more than others, and drives them, what is the story of that success. What is interesting in his book is that he hasn’t mentioned any female stories in the chapters I have read so far, which is a bit different, it’s all about stories of men or teams but there are no female stories of success. So that’s something I’d like to see, if it changes as I go through the book.

CIARAN RYAN: Great and it is a book that we have had recommended before, the Malcolm Gladwell book. So that’s interesting that you also found that quite inspiring. I think we’re going to leave it there. Nicolaas, did you have any final words that you wanted to share with Catherine there?

NICOLAAS VAN WYK: I think what stands out for me is Catherine’s teaching background, qualification, and how things that you do early on in your career has a way of coming back and bearing fruit. That is now exactly the role of the CFO. So that is what SAIBA would like to with universities and what we’re busy doing is to see if we can redraft our BCom accountancy qualifications, maybe make it a four or a five-year but bring in humanities. I think that’s the missing element currently and this is exactly what Catherine is explaining. So we would like to revolutionise the accounting profession by making it more human.

CIARAN RYAN: I’m sure that Catherine would love to have input on that because that’s clearly a passion that she has is education and then the role of women in accounting. Would that be correct, Catherine, to say that?

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Correct and I love how you say we bring the human element to accounting. I believe once you’ve done that you’ve closed the loop and if there’s any way I could be of assistance or hear more about that, please let me know. It is correct, the things you do in the past, you might never know why you did it and it comes back to show why it’s there. Life is never one straight ladder, it’s more like a jungle gym and you learn every day. If I ever had to give anyone advice, learn as much as you can every day, no matter what it is. No one can take that away from you and the value that you can bring to someone’s life afterwards is just exceptional.

CIARAN RYAN: Fantastic, it’s been great to have you on Catherine and Nicolaas. Thanks very much for coming on, we do appreciate you taking the time. A fascinating discussion, I think we learned a lot, we learned something about the motor industry in South Africa and the challenges you’ve got. Your particular journey, I think, which is obviously very unique, and I think there are lessons there for women in the accounting profession that we’d love to share with our community. We’d love to have you back on again in the future, so we’d like to stay in touch.

CATHERINE CAMPBELL-FERREIRA: Thank you very much, I really enjoyed it and I appreciate the time you’ve taken to get to know me better and ask for my opinion and how I see certain things, it’s greatly appreciated.

CIARAN RYAN: Great to have you on, Catherine, and you have a great day, and thank you, Nicolaas.

NICOLAAS VAN WYK: Thanks, Ciaran. Thanks, Catherine. Have a great day.

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