CFO – Hubergroup SA
Mark le Roux, CFO of Hubergroup South Africa, explains how the CFO is having to master new disciplines and assume a commanding role in the business. Not least of these skills is communication – something not taught in accounting schools.
CIARAN RYAN: This is CFO talks and I’m Ciaran Ryan and what a pleasure it is today to be speaking to Mark le Roux who is CFO at Hubergroup SA. Which is a company with headquarters in Germany and one of the largest ink manufacturers in the world and we will get to that in a minute. Today’s podcast is sponsored by Draftworx, which is a software programme that provides automated drafting and working paper financial software to more than 8000 accounting and audit firms and corporates around the world. CFO Talks is a brand of the South African Institute of business accountants. Now Mark welcome first of all, how are you today and where are you talking to us from?
MARK LE ROUX: Morning Ciaran, thank you very much for the introduction and for the opportunity to talk with you. So, I’m talking from Sandton in Johannesburg, I’m actually working from home today, so in Douglasdale.
I wanted to understand the benefits of being a specialist versus a generalist
CIARAN RYAN: Douglasdale in Johannesburg. Now interestingly Hubergroup South Africa or Hubergroup is 255 years old and it’s got 3700 employees worldwide and has got a presence in 33 countries, that’s quite a fascinating story. According to the website the first ink was patented in 1976, it’s grown in leaps and bounds over the centuries and recently diversified into chemicals so I want to hear about that. Now Mark what’s interesting about you is you have taken a different route to CFO. You did a BCom at the University of Natal then you did an MBA at the Gordon Institute of Business Accountants. So that non-conventional route to CFO why did you take that, what was your thinking? You didn’t go the CA route.
MARK LE ROUX: Looking back it has been an unconventional route, so from a very young age I was always intrigued with the prospect and different aspects of business. I’ve always had a burning desire to learn and an insatiable hunger for growth and upon completing my matric, I knew I wanted to obtain an undergraduate degree but deliberated with the idea, whether to proceed with the CA route or obtain a BComm degree and decide how I would branch off from there. So, I guess with family members and elders and seniors who had typically both had either a CA or an MBA or both to understand the benefits of being a specialist versus a generalist. To be honest at that stage I had not quite made up my mind so I decided to enroll in the BCom degree and keep my options open for my career. There are certainly different routes to becoming a CFO and the most direct path is going through and qualifying as a CA (SA). It’s a hugely respected and recognised designation and I sincerely commend those who have earned it.
So, in terms of my journey I wanted to get exposure and involved in all facets of business and I figured I could do so by working in companies learning as much as I could and taking on more and more responsibilities within my role. I typically fulfilled bookkeeping and accounting duties in organisations where I worked while gaining as much knowledge and experience during these journeys. For my sins I always put myself out there to take on new challenges within organisations, so typically worked my way up to a financial manager and then now as a CFO. I find it very interesting and you know somewhat short sighted I guess, for lack of a better word that the majority of employers these days that are looking for CFOs, state that they need a qualification as a CA(SA) as a prerequisite, I would seriously urge companies and recruiters to reconsider this position and be open to candidates that have also taken a non-conventional route similar to myself. I think given the constantly changing nature of business, I believe that there are a lot of candidates that have followed different paths that can have huge value to organisations in CFO roles. I really feel that they are limiting their selection pools by typically defining the pre-requisites.
CIARAN RYAN: Right, we are finding quite a lot of CFOs actually that have not gone the CA route and maybe we will talk about that in a minute. Before we do that let’s talk about the Hubergroup. Fascinating because the first patent was issued in 1976, sorry 1796 almost 300 years ago, 255 years ago. Tell us a little bit about this and the ancient lineage that it has.
Hubergroup is over 255 years old
MARK LE ROUX: Absolutely as per your introduction, the company is over 255 years old. We have a presence in every continent and currently over 150 sites in 33 different countries. Incidentally it is a family-owned company, which is now in its 8th generation, it really is a fascinating story and I will give you a brief history in terms of the grass roots and how it started out. So typically, in 1765 there was an application to produce ink in Germany that was registered by a gentleman called Mattheus Mittemeyer and the reason for that was typically to get permission for colours to print the Munich coat of arms, obviously to have that permission to also sell the ink in Germany and abroad. Then 15 years later his son-in-law actually took over the business and then successfully expanded it and grew it and then he passed it onto his son who was Michael Huber in 1815. So, under Michael Huber the company became the first print ink manufacturer in Germany and grew from strength to strength by the Huber family. Obviously continually improving manufacturing techniques, expanding their product range, building new production sites, it really is an incredible story.
They survived both the world wars and obviously the Great economic depression as well. So, it just speaks to the resiliency and nature of the business. During the 1990s and 2000s is when they typically expanded their footprint to the rest of the continents and with this extensive growth in the organisation the ethos of the culture is still that of a closely knitted family business. Today we are recognised as one of the largest ink manufacturers in the world. So typically, the application of the commercial printing inks, is newspapers, magazines and packaging, so food packaging, pharmaceutical packaging, flexible packaging, folding carton, so basically any type of substrate that you can think of that contains ink is what Hubergroup manufactures. To give you an example if you had to walk down a shopping centre aisle in a supermarket and all of those food products which are typically on the shelves, be it rusks, be it biscuits, be it chips, food stuffs, cooldrinks, chocolates, you name it, all of the ink that is on those packaging is typically the ink that Hubergroup would manufacture.
Our key differentiators in the market are obviously the quality of our product and service levels that we offer, we are ISO 9001, 14001 and 15001 accredited and a very formidable and have set many ecological standards in the printing industry to promote sustainability and ensure safety of products based on the relevant regulations and market requirements.
CIARAN RYAN: Sorry Mark I just went off there for a minute. Can you break this down for us in figures, what’s the turnover like at International level and at South African level and is there growth happening at the moment?
MARK LE ROUX: Oh yes absolutely certainly. I will first talk about the International level and then let’s talk about the South African level. At the International level the turnover is maintained around the €700 – € 800 million mark over the last couple of years. With the increasing move to digital platforms, the offset inks which is typically newspaper and magazine printing markets have reduced drastically, but the packaging market is one of the biggest growth drivers for the organisation based on the consumption per capita, you know continuously increasing worldwide. In South Africa we typically have 3 branches in the major metropolitan regions that’s Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban with the Headoffice being based in Johannesburg. We have experienced quite a lot of growth in South Africa over the past few years, especially in the packaging sector and although globally the offset sector which like I mentioned is newspapers and magazines is on the decline, it is on the decline in South Africa but not at the levels as it is globally. We are continually investing and expanding further into solvent based packaging markets and there is a lot of business in the export markets which we do a lot of work. The turnover in South Africa is typically around R120 – R140 million.
CIARAN RYAN: Okay, all right. Give us an idea of the impact of COVID on the business. When I first read about the company, I imagined that it’s pretty much and I think you’ve alluded to this, that it’s related somewhat to GDP performance. Is that a fact and has COVID impacted the business?
MARK LE ROUX: Yeah, COVID has really taken its toll on the majority of businesses this year. Unfortunately, Hubergroup has also been impacted as a result of COVID. In terms of the global level, you know, different regions throughout the lockdown periods had different rules and regulations and there were different trading, things that were permitted. So different regions globally have been impacted differently, but ultimately all of the business units have been impacted as a result of COVID.
The impact on COVID-19 in South Africa
Locally, we’ve also been impacted, you know, as a result of the effects of COVID, so much so that we probably looking to right around 70% of our top line that was budgeted for the year. As I mentioned, I mean the major shock to the industry as a whole, and everyone was caught off guard with COVID, but there have certainly been some silver linings that has come through it. You know, we’ve been very fortunate, that we were granted all of the necessary permissions and permits to try during the lockdown periods. So we did all of our applications with the departments of trade and industry, and because we are considered as enablers of essential services, but typically because the ink is used in the packaging for food and pharmaceutical products, we were able to trade. In addition to that, we also did an application to TERS and we were successful in our application, which typically managed to soften the blow of the loss of revenue.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah, I just think let’s just point out for people who are not in South Africa, what TERS is, I think it stands for the Temporary Employment Relief Scheme. It’s basically the unemployment insurance that you can apply for in South Africa during the COVID period, right?
MARK LE ROUX: Yes, absolutely.
CIARAN RYAN: Just continue then what you were saying
MARK LE ROUX: No, sure. So I was talking about some of the spinoffs, you know, as a result of it. And I mean, obviously being typically in a manufacturing industry, a lot of the work is required onsite at the office. But, you know, in terms of the financial functions, we were forced to work from home and it’s really been great because, I mean, as today I mentioned, I’m talking from home and, you know, it’s wonderful, the advancements of technology and that you’re almost able to work from anywhere, you know, essentially.
CIARAN RYAN: Right, okay. Talk about the role of the CFO now. One gets a sense that the role of the CFO is moving pretty much past pure number crunching. Are you involved in other areas such as strategy and human resources? And that seems to be a theme that’s coming up amongst other CFOs that we talking to. Is that your experience as well?
MARK LE ROUX: Oh yes, absolutely. The role of the CFO is certainly a continuously evolving and becoming very, very versatile. I think, due to the constantly changing nature of business, the roles and responsibilities are increasing and they becoming more significantly involved with actually the running of the business together with the MD, the CEO, and, you know, typically general managers.
It’s taking on more responsibilities as you mentioned like HR, Strategy, IT, Insurance, as well as other support functions. I also find that they becoming heavily involved in commercial discussions of business where it’s no longer about presenting and interpreting the business scorecard, but rather being at the forefront of developing the strategy towards understanding the market positioning, investments, market penetration strategies is what is building business resiliency, you know to navigate these unprecedented times. In addition to this I find the CFOs are becoming more significantly influential in terms of implementing business strategies and in terms of my current role, I guess it’s, it’s also unconventional but speaks to the changing roles and responsibilities of CFOs.
I typically run and am responsible for the day-to-day operations of the South African business entity together with the general manager of sales and operations. In addition to the finance function and managing the financial health of the organization, very involved in HR, recruitment, you know, developing policies and procedures, driving business improvement initiatives and also look after the HR function, drive the BBB EE transformation, you know, throughout the organization as well and also involved in the business strategy and commercial contracts, and I typically draft all of the corporate, external and internal communications. So it suits in the evidence that, you know, one has to wear many different hats as a CFO, but really enjoy the involvements and in depth and critical thinking, you know, about the business that’s always on our foreground to stay one step ahead of the competition.
You’re really involved in a lot of the external communications around the finance post.
CIARAN RYAN: Yep, it’s an interesting point about the, some of these roles that you’ve mentioned and communications being a big part of it. You’re really involved in a lot of the external communications around the finance post. I’m not sure if you’re aware of some of the research that’s been done overseas. There’s one from Canada, it’s a research paper it’s called “From CA to CFO”, which basically identifies about 34 different competencies that are required for the CFO role. Now, if you go through the, the syllabus that’s available, no matter whether you’re doing the CA or you going some other route, those are very, very different, you know, and they include things like marketing and strategy and communications that you’re really not going to learn in academia. The South African Institute of business accountants, as a result of that developed the CFO designation, which is really to recognize people, you know, for the experience that they’ve gained and has developed a lot of training around these, these particular areas as well. Would that, would you agree with that, that the academic route does not really prepare you for this role? There’s some things that you’ve got to acquire through experience through, you know, leaning over somebody’s shoulder and seeing how he’s doing it.
MARK LE ROUX: No, absolutely. So, I’m actually a member of the South African Institute of Business Accountants, and I’m very honored to hold a CFO (SA) designation. And it, really is true in terms of how the role has changed over the number of years and the responsibilities. I think it’s good for an academic background, but traditionally, you know, the CA route doesn’t any more prepare you sufficiently for a CFO. Considering all of the different aspects of business that you’re involved in. I mean like the corporate communications, as you mentioned, IT functions, you know, managing that whole IT function, looking after the HR of the business doing the recruitment of candidates, you know, selection. Unfortunately, in the process, you know, section 189 processes would also fall in that position as well.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah, I think the section 189, you probably better to just explain what that is, that’s related to retrenchments is it? The labor relations act?
MARK LE ROUX: That’s 100% correct. So typically, you know, obviously as a result of COVID the retrenchment rates in businesses in South Africa has been significantly high. You know, unfortunately there’s a lot of unemployment, you know, that has stemmed from COVID and typically the section 189 process is the full review where you would restructure an organization and try to as much as possible, you know, soften the impact. But unfortunately, you know, there is a process and you would go through the different staff who go through the different roles, try and see if you can integrate different roles together and ultimately prevent the cost cutting.
Essentially, the thing is and the idea behind it is rather to try and save a few costs and keep the business running, then not attend to those costs and then ultimately find yourself in different situations with regards to the business in terms of cashflow problems and so on.
CIARAN RYAN: Right, I mean the South African economy is recovering at the moment as is the global economy. Are you noticing that, uh, things kind of getting back to normal?
Although we’re not close to the levels that we are familiar with historically, we certainly can see that there is an upward trend
MARK LE ROUX: Yes, I mean look, in terms of the printing industry, you know, it’s, this is actually the busiest season because everyone is doing the preparations for the festive season. Although we’re not close to the levels that we are familiar with historically, we certainly can see that there is an upward trend and I think since the lockdown has been eased to level one, there are certainly a lot more confidence in the economy and in business sectors, I think businesses in general are a bit reluctant to invest, you know, in the last few months of this year and rather ride out the wave, but I’m expecting to see quite a bit of investment and further growth in, in the new year. Provided that Covid stays at bay, I guess.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah yeah, exactly. Do you have production facilities in South Africa or do you import the product?
MARK LE ROUX: The bulk of our product is imported but we do have general blending facilities in South Africa. So that’s typically, from the raw materials that we get from our overseas branches manufacturing the product and then blending the products if you like and then shipping them out to customers as per their specifications for the different substrates that they print on.
CIARAN RYAN: For a company that’s been around 255 years, I imagine there’s a huge amount of R and D that has gone into inks, I suppose, you know, they’re environmentally friendly, they have different uses, they have to dry pretty quick. Is there a lot of R and D going on?
MARK LE ROUX: Oh yes, absolutely. So our mother plants is typically based in India after stage, I stand to be corrected, but I think it’s 40 hectares, which is probably 40 rugby fields in size, it’s absolutely huge. And the capacity that they can produce on an annual basis is up to 300 thousand tons of product. So it just shows the magnitude of the business and I mean, R and D is obviously at the forefront with things constantly changing with demands changing, with regulations, changing in terms of, you know, food grade products and all of that. So there is a significant amount of involvement in R and D that takes place improving products, you know, being more cost-effective, in terms of different items and obviously, you know with the vertical integration strategies that we’ve implemented you know, in the group, we typically manufacture the raw materials from start.
CIARAN RYAN: Wow okay. You’ve spoken about India where your main plant is and there are probably some complexities around working in a multinational group in more than 30 different countries. You report to India, is that right? And how does that impact your job? What are those complexities?
MARK LE ROUX: So absolutely, I do report in to India. The complexities, there are some complexities on the one hand for working for a multinational organization, but on the other hand, due to globalization, the barriers have been completely eradicated. So since day one, when I started in my role at the company four years ago, I reported abroad into the MD of South Africa. At that stage, he was based in the UK and looked after South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand but in terms of the demographics and the layout of the organization, it made business sense for South Africa to report into the Asian business unit and so typically two years ago an internal restructuring took place so we would report into the Asian business unit. The Asian business unit typically consists of South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, China, and the rest of Africa. At that stage, there was obviously a lot more involvement with the vice president of international business, he’s based in India and today I typically report into that position.
CIARAN RYAN: Okay. All right now tell us about you’ve diversified into chemicals, that seems like a fairly logical thing to do. What kind of chemicals are we talking about here and what are the business prospects for this?
So, this is a very interesting, exciting and new phase for Hubergroup in terms of the chemicals.
MARK LE ROUX: So, like, this is a very interesting, exciting and new phase for Hubergroup in terms of the chemicals. I’ll talk about those first and then we’ll talk about that bit of the strategy. So, it’s resins, lamination adhesives, colorants additives, typically for print ink manufacturers, as well as chemical companies. As I was mentioning a bit earlier in terms of the vertical integration of the organization, you know, we manufactured the raw materials for the chemicals that are used in the production of ink and given the R and D which you touched on and the knowledge and expertise that we’ve gained from these processes. The corporate decision has been to diversify and divide the business into 2 divisions. So typically the print solutions and chemicals and the intention is to make its technological expertise in the form of the chemicals available to a wider range of customers.
So typically with this diversification production and marketing of the chemicals will be handled by the chemicals division and they’ll typically operate independently from the ink business. I mean, one might argue that the market is hugely competitive with established players, but with the costs and economies of scale in terms of production, as well as the technical expertise that we have you know, we can be very, very formidable, competitive players in the market.
CIARAN RYAN: Right. Give us some insight, just a couple of quick questions, but some insights into your career journey. Where did you grow up and explain how you ended up where you are now a CFO for Hubergroup South Africa.
MARK LE ROUX: Right. So I was born in Durban and schooled in Durban and I matriculated at Durban high school. Whilst I was studying, I actually, during the vacations, I would work for FNB corporate at that stage and that would typically help to pay for my studies and for the books and give me a bit of extra pocket money, which is really great. But I made quite an impact in the organization and fortunately managed to negotiate with the MD at that stage during varsity that I would restructure my timetable. So, I would attend lectures on particular days and then, you know, work on the other days and that’s typically, you know, where it started. In my third year, I obviously just focused on the studies and completed the degree and then I started working for a company called Not just Computers.
They were automation engineers, for like Unilever in terms of programming, all of their machines and PLC programming and things like that and they also had a computer aspect to the business. So, selling computer components and also building up, machines and what have you. So I figured that I want it to get into the IT industry and this would be a good fit and then obviously start in an accounting and financial role within that organization. They expanded within a short period and purchased a restaurant and diversified into that and appointed me as the operations manager of the restaurant. I didn’t realize when I was in Durban, that I was hitting glass ceilings, you know, quite early on in my career and I decided let’s take a leap of faith and move up to Johannesburg. You know, as it was the business hub and a lot of things were happening here and I mean, obviously still today, so when I moved to Joburg I was employed by a company called ADP dealer services, which is now known as CDK global.
So they were software developers and distributors of ERP systems for the automotive commercial and distributive trades. Whilst I was there, I was promoted to typically, 2IC to the country controller and during my tenure, the managements of the commercial side of the business realized that there was a big opportunity you know, that wasn’t being utilized. So, they did a management buyout and, and bought the full business. It was based in South Africa, the UK and Ireland, at that stage and set up a company, which is today known as Kerrage Commercial Systems. I was appointed as the financial manager of that company and as it had just been set up, I was tasked to set up the full accounting and finance function of the entity, obviously putting policies and procedures in place, business improvement initiatives and then also looked after the HR aspect of that business.
I grew quite well, very nicely with that business I was there for six years and during the time I was there, I was very fortunate that I could do my MBA. So I did my MBA at the Gordon Institute of business science and then typically the year after a lot of the friends and colleagues who completed the MBA with me, were either changing their jobs during the tenure at the MBA, or immediately thereafter and I guess I’m unconventional. So I decided, no, I need a break. So, I mean, I continued to work, but we typically traveled that year and the following year is when I said okay, let’s get serious again. I was head hunted by the Hubergroup for the CFO role and have typically been there ever since for the last four years, I thoroughly enjoyed the engagement with the business unit leaders and the strategic thinking and problem solving aspects of the business that I’m exposed to currently. You know, there’s always challenges, there’s always exciting learning opportunities and as I mentioned, I always stick up my hand maybe for my sins, but obviously it’s really been a wonderful journey for me.
CIARAN RYAN: It does sound like with the diversification into chemicals that there’s quite a lot of blue sky ahead for Hubergroup around the world.
MARK LE ROUX: Yes, look, it’s, it’s something that is quite a recent development and the biggest thing is even with ink manufacturers who don’t produce their own chemicals, who are typically sourcing those chemicals from suppliers. We can now step into those positions and we can start supplying chemicals to those players. And obviously having the knowledge and technical capabilities and expertise it certainly, we hope is certainly going to bring a lot of blue skies.
CIARAN RYAN: All right. Okay and there’s a question we ask everybody, any books that you’re reading that you’d recommend and they don’t have to be technical books. They can be fun books.
MARK LE ROUX: Yes, absolutely. I really enjoy self-motivation books. I’m a big believer in personal development, continual improvement you know of yourself. And I actually have three books that I would recommend, that speak to all of this and really, you know, get you on the right track in terms of your mind and thinking.
So the first one is The Magic of thinking Big by David J Schwartz, it’s a hugely motivational book. One of the quotes that I quite like from the book it says “sucess is determined, not so much by the size of one’s brain, but by the size of one’s thinking.” and everything in the book speaks to being big, believing big, taking big action and most importantly, to do it now. Essentially, it’s talking you know procrastination is the lead to all failures and rather get started on something even if it’s not going to work, than being fearful and not taking that leap. It’s typically about changing your mindset, you know, abandoning small, easily achievable goals, and rather focusing on bigger ones, which are better suited to you to drive you and to motivate you.
The next one is The 10X rule by Grant Cardone, so this book is about achieving extreme success in work, life, family life, and spiritual life. So, the 10 X rule says that you should set targets for yourself that are 10 times greater than what you believe you can achieve and you should take actions that are 10 times greater than what you believe are necessary to achieve your goals. It almost has the same underlying, notion as the previous book where the biggest mistake that people make is not setting goals high enough and obviously taking the massive action is the only way to fulfill your true potential.
I think the last book, which I also I’ve really enjoyed this book and I’ll highly recommend it, it’s called Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. So, this book typically examines the psychological power of thought and the brain and the process of furthering your career for both monetary and personal satisfaction. It was originally published in 1937 and it’s one of the all-time greatest self-help classics. It’s laced with positive affirmations and reinforcements. It basically teaches you how to master your subconscious thinking and help you achieve your goals.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah, I’ve read that and I’ve come across grant Cardone as well he’s quite a fascinating individual. I think recently he filled out a stadium I mean, tens of thousands of people go to see this guy and his motivational talks. The Napoleon Hill one, you mentioned I remember reading that. Did you go back and revisit these books every now and again for that kind of inspiration,
MARK LE ROUX: I’ve always intended to, but you end up like picking up new books and you know, I think it’s, it’s always good to have a summary and then to go back, especially maybe when you are in lull points. To be honest, I haven’t really had the opportunity to go back and revisit these as such, but a lot of the books, you know, that are the self-motivation books and, you know, personal development books tend to speak around the same type of genres and aspects and so basically, you know, by reading those, it kind of reaffirms the things that you’ve read previously.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah. Mark, we got to leave it there. We are out of time. It was a great discussion. I was really fascinated to learn more about yourself and about the Hubergroup. I don’t think we’ve ever had a company that’s got that kind of ancient lineage if 255 years can be considered ancient and I suppose it can in the corporate world, given the fact that, you know, companies grow and they get sold or they fail. You know, it really does speak to this something very enduring about the company, something that it’s remained in the family. It’s probably very conservative financially and it’s built for the generations to outlast everybody else. What a very interesting company. So, I want to thank you for coming on and wish you the very best of luck. I’m very happy to hear that you have the CFO (SA) designation from, from SAIBA, from the South African Institute of business accountants that’s a great piece of news.
I’m very honored to have the CFO (SA) designation
MARK LE ROUX: Thank you very much, Ciaran. I’ve really enjoyed the discussions also and yeah, I’m very honored to have that designation and also in terms of the business, I mean, as you talk about it, you know, the 250 years, it really is, it is quite remarkable. You know, if you think about how much things have changed, you know, even in the last 20 years, now go back 250 years and it really is something that you can be very proud of and as you mentioned, very enduring.
CIARAN RYAN: Yeah, I think that’s a subject for a discussion for another day. I would really like to drill into this and just look at what is the financial philosophy behind a company that is built to last for hundreds of years. You know, there are these Japanese companies that have also been around for, for 300 years. They must have an extremely conservative way of managing their finances, they don’t run into trouble, they have sufficient cushions to be able to last through the Wars. And I mean, in your case, it’s not just world war one and world war two, it was the Napoleonic Wars, it was the French revolution, it was all of those things that it survived.
MARK LE ROUX: Yes. A hundred percent.
CIARAN RYAN: I think that’s a fascinating discussion for another day. I’d like to have that with you.
MARK LE ROUX: Absolutely, I would be delighted to have it with you too.
CIARAN RYAN: Great, that was Mark Le Roux who is the chief financial officer at Hubergroup South Africa. Thanks very much for coming on and talking to us, Mark.
MARK LE ROUX: Thank you Ciaran, really enjoyed the time with you.
CIARAN RYAN: Okay, bye now.